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| GREFFIERE DE LA COUR: | | Uriel Wittenberg versus Fred Geisweiller, Locomotive Investments Inc., carrying on business as Le Select. |
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| LA COUR: | | Are you appearing for the plaintiff? |
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| M. WITTENBERG: | | Yes, Uriel Wittenberg. |
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| LA COUR: | | The plaintiff for himself. And for the defendant? |
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| MME LONSDALE: | | Christine Lonsdale. Je suis étudiante ou stagiaire au bureau de McCarthy Tétrault. |
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| STENOGRAPHE JUDICIAIRE: | | Je ne peux pas vous entendre. |
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| MME LONSDALE: | | Christine Lonsdale. |
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| LA COUR: | | Comment est-ce quon écrit Lonsdale? |
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| MME LONSDALE: | | L-O-N-S-D-A-L-E. |
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| LA COUR: | | Stagiaire au cabinet des MM. McCarthy Tétrault? |
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| MME LONSDALE: | | Voilà. |
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| LA COUR: | | Are you giving evidence on your behalf? |
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| M. WITTENBERG: | | Yes. |
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| LA COUR: | | Okay. |
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| URIEL WITTENBERG: ASSERMENTE |
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| M. WITTENBERG: | | Well, Your Honour, Id just like to give you a little background about this suit which I actually filed - it was just two years ago, in September 1997. |
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| LA COUR: | | Okay, I have read the file but go ahead. |
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| M. WITTENBERG: | | Okay. Well, very briefly, at first I obtained default judgment because there was no response from Mr. Geisweiller, the defendant. Afterwards Mr. Geisweiller succeeded in setting this aside claiming that he had not received the notice of claim, which Id sent by certified mail.
We had a trial. My claim was granted in full. Mr. Geisweiller succeeded in having this set aside as well, claiming that he had been denied a bilingual trial. So Im here again seeking to obtain a third judgment to obtain payment for work that I did for Mr. Geisweiller in 1997.
Mr. Geisweiller became a client of mine in 1987. Since that time Ive performed many thousands of dollars worth of consulting services for him. He generally expressed a high level of satisfaction. |
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| LA COUR: | | Those are all computer services? |
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| M. WITTENBERG: | | No, mostly computer consulting services. |
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| LA COUR: | | Okay. |
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| M. WITTENBERG: | | There were kind of peripheral services I performed as well. One of the main systems was a system that would take the restaurant computer that was used for generating sale receipts, and get all the data from that every night and load that into a P.C. and accumulated data base.
This system has probably been running now about 12 years. Its been running since 1987, and it has a large data base giving exact details of every sale for every day going back in time. You can get totals over a period of time, and this system has been running successfully for many years.
This is a system thats run every night at the restaurant and if you walk into the office you will see sales reports in the restaurant office, sales reports from that system everywhere. Its heavily used.
Now, in the computer consulting industry typical consulting contracts are time-based, an hourly fee is established and fees are simply a multiple of the hours worked times the established rate. This was the fee basis on which I rented consulting services at Loblaws, National Grocers, and other companies in Toronto. Its also the same fee basis on which I performed consulting at Anderson Consulting, J.P. Morgan and other firms in New York. And of course this was the fee basis on which I offered consulting services to Mr. Geisweiller.
Now, this method of determining fees is not at all complicated. Its not subtle, theres nothing hidden about it. My regular invoices, dozens and dozens of invoices over the years to Mr. Geisweiller, clearly showed hours worked and the corresponding fee as a multiple of the established rate. Ive got a sample invoice plucked pretty well at random from the dozens that I had submitted over the years to Mr. Geisweiller, which I would like to submit in evidence. Im afraid I dont have copies. |
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| LA COUR: | | Well make copies of it here. So Exhibit Number One will be a sample invoice for something before the invoice in question here. |
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| M. WITTENBERG: | | Yes. |
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| LA COUR: | | Okay. |
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PIECE DE LA PREUVE NUMERO UN: Sample invoice. - Produite et numerotée. |
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| M. WITTENBERG: | | This is a 1990 invoice, and I stress that this is a typical invoice. It shows the hours that I spent... |
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| LA COUR: | | 1990, so this is before you switch your hourly rate from $60.00 to $80.00, is that it? I thought it was in 91 that you switched. |
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| M. WITTENBERG: | | Thats - your memory is very good... |
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| LA COUR: | | Well, its... |
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| M. WITTENBERG: | | ...Your Honour. |
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| LA COUR: | | ...I got the stuff. |
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| M. WITTENBERG: | | Yes. As a matter of fact that was an omission on my part. The rate changed to 90 - to $80.00 an hour in 1990, not 1991. |
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| LA COUR: | | Okay. |
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| M. WITTENBERG: | | That was my mistake. |
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| LA COUR: | | So you have the new hourly rate on this one, okay. |
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| M. WITTENBERG: | | Yes. |
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| LA COUR: | | This is your copy. |
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| M. WITTENBERG: | | Which in fact... |
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| LA COUR: | | We have a copy for the defendant? |
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| GREFFIERE DE LA COUR: | | Yes. |
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| M. WITTENBERG: | | ...that only indicates that by the time I did the work which is now in dispute, the same rate, the same hourly consulting rate had been in effect for at least seven years.
Now, I first began working in the computer field over 20 years ago after getting my computer science degree. Id like to mention that this is the first and only time that anyone has ever refused to pay for my services for work that Ive performed.
In 1997 I had moved and I was working in New York. Mr. Geisweiller called me there to ask me to do some work for him during my next visit to Toronto and we arranged that I would do this in April 1997. Now, I showed up at the office and I worked on the project that Mr. Geisweiller had wanted. Unfortunately, unexpected technical obstacles arose in the course of the work. I wasnt able to deliver the result that we had hoped for.
Id like to point out that its a characteristic of work in the computer field that its very often difficult or impossible to accurately gauge how much time a given piece of work will take to obtain a given result. Its very hard to estimate the time involved. This works both ways, sometimes things take longer than expected, sometimes its a lot faster than expected. Mr. Geisweiller was very familiar with this reality from my work for him over the years.
One example I can give of this from his direct experience, was work that I did for him involving French keyboards. Some time in the early nineties or maybe even late eighties, Mr. Geisweiller had decided that he wanted an actual keyboard not with sticky labels on top, he wanted a proper true French keyboard with custom-engraved keycaps, which was not available on the market at the time.
Now, a keyboard is - then it was worth perhaps $100.00. I spent maybe 20 or 30 hours working on locating a firm that could custom-engrave keycaps, negotiating with them. It was a U.S. firm that I finally found. This is the days before the web, so it took longer to find this firm than it normally would have. I got the right specifications for keycaps, I bought a regular keyboard, took off the keycaps myself to replace the new ones that had been sent by mail from this company in New York. So anyhow, it was many thousands of dollars for keyboards, three keyboards with custom-engraved keycaps. I give that as an example of the value that one might think associated with a given job, really not necessarily corresponding to the price. The price was always very simple, hours times rate.
Now, during the job in question, at the end of the first day I reported the obstacles Id run into to Mr. Geisweiller. I told him that the fees for the day so far would be $500.00. He asked if that would cover the next day. I said no, it wouldnt, that would be additional. He said to come back anyway tomorrow to try to complete the job that he wanted done. I came back the next day, didnt achieve the result. I tried in good faith, I spent the time, I could not get the desired system working the way we wanted.
Before leaving on the second day I submitted my invoice. At the time that I left, I should mention, I just had no more time available to work on this problem, I had to catch my plane back home. |
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| LA COUR: | | I wont ask you if it was business class or economy... |
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| M. WITTENBERG: | | Okay, we dont need to get into that again. |
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| LA COUR: | | ...like in the previous case. |
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| M. WITTENBERG: | | Yes, but Ill tell you it was economy. At my expense too. When I gave the invoice to Mr. Geisweiller he gave no sign that he would object to payment. |
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| LA COUR: | | Thats why it was not printed then. |
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| M. WITTENBERG: | | Thats right, yes. I left it on the computer and I told him where it was. |
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| LA COUR: | | Okay. |
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| M. WITTENBERG: | | He gave no indication that he would object to paying the invoice. About five weeks later it was overdue. I hadnt received payment and I phoned him up. There was no response to the message. I finally did reach him and he told me for the first time that he didnt intend to pay the invoice.
At that point I sent him a letter, which actually is on the court file, and some time afterwards I called him on. He told me hed received the letter but had not read it.
Now, if one is unfamiliar with the hourly fee system Mr. Geisweillers position might seem understandable. He has an invoice for $1,100.00 for services that brought him very little benefit. His statement of defence is that he should only have to pay $150.00 for the 14 hours of work that I spent working for him. But Mr. Geisweiller knows perfectly well that this violates our agreement.
Over many years, for 10 years, he had regular invoices that he paid that showed very clearly the very simple function of time that consulting fees represented. Mr. Geisweiller was not free to assess how much the job is worth to him, after the work has already been performed. And really its impossible to view Mr. Geisweillers position in a reasonable light. If one feels that a price, a consulting fee, should be adjustable downwards when productivity is lower than expected, then why wouldnt the fee be adjustable upwards when productivity is greater than expected?
There were certainly occasions when I delivered things faster than Mr. Geisweiller had expected. I always billed only the hours worked. Mr. Geisweiller never told me that the invoice was too low. It seems that in his system he can only win. Now, did he have a right to expect a discount?
Over the many years that I did work for Mr. Geisweiller there was a small number of occasions when I offered a discount or performed a service free of charge, a minor service. I can only say theres no way a reasonable person could possibly interpret that as an alteration of the contract that we had in effect.
Now, when Mr. Geisweiller and I discussed the job on the phone, I told him explicitly that there was no guarantee for this work. This was something I hadnt directly done before and you never know exactly how long something will take. Mr. Geisweiller had a choice of getting a guarantee if he wanted, but that would have involved a completely different kind of contract, which he did not choose.
Now, when I told Mr. Geisweiller no guarantee he knows what that means. No guarantee means, well, exactly what happened. I might end up working those hours, not achieve the results that we want, and nevertheless he will have to pay the hourly fee. Thats what no guarantee means.
In fact we had a contract whereby Mr. Geisweiller purchased my time to work for him as he had routinely purchased it for years and years in the past. This contract has brought him many benefits on his business over the years. Its a contract that he voluntarily entered into, now he refuses to honour its terms. Thats why Im here today. |
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| LA COUR: | | Madame Christine Lonsdale, avez-vous des questions pour le témoin? |
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| MME LONSDALE: | | Cest mon intention, Votre Honneur, de contre-interroger ce témoin en anglais. |
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| LA COUR: | | Oui, cest bien, okay. |
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| MME LONSDALE: | | Mon client donnera son témoignage en français. |
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| LA COUR: | | Ça va. |
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| CONTRE-INTERROGATOIRE PAR MME LONSDALE: |
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| Q. | | Mister Wittenberg, youve worked with computers for the past 20 years, is that what I understand? |
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| R. | | Yes, there were short gaps for graduate school also, graduate school studies during which I also did computer work, but yes, its been over 20 years. |
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| Q. | | So youd consider yourself a professional computer consultant? |
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| R. | | Yes, I would. |
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| Q. | | And, as you say, your work has been of a very high level and youre very competent at what you do. Is that how you... |
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| R. | | Ill agree with that. |
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| Q. | | ...would describe your... |
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| R. | | Ill agree with it. |
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| Q. | | You would? |
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| R. | | Yes, okay. |
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| Q. | | You also told the court that you had never done this kind of work, is that correct? |
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| R. | | Yes, the specific transfer of software, yes. |
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| Q. | | And in fact you had discussed this with Mr. Geisweiller and you had agreed, amongst you, that it might not be possible to achieve the result? |
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| R. | | Well... |
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| Q. | | Or had you just issued a warning? |
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| R. | | It is certainly possible to achieve the result. We had a time constraint because of my, you know, the duration of my visit. Yes, no guarantee means I might not achieve the results in the time available. |
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| Q. | | And what was the time, in your mind, that was available when you first discussed this project? |
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| R. | | I was thinking one day. |
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| Q. | | How many hours? |
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| R. | | Eight. |
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| Q. | | Okay. So when you came to this task you knew you hadnt done it before. You knew the system because you had worked on it for the past 10 years, is that also correct? |
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| R. | | Well, like I said, this was - I mean I was - the job was moving software from one computer to a new computer. Id never seen the new computer. I didnt know what the programs that I was moving might have in the way of requirements for the hardware that I was moving it to, the new computer.
I didnt know certain things. My expectation was that it would not be too difficult to simply move the actual files and everything over to the new computer and test it and run it and see that it works properly. That was my expectation. I ran into several obstacles in the course of that. |
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| Q. | | So when you assessed your ability to do this task you knew, coming into it, that there were a variety of unknowns, is that correct? |
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| R. | | A variety of unknowns, yes. Yes, there always are, yes. |
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| Q. | | And that part of your job as a professional computer consultant is to assess whether or not you are able to overcome those unknowns or not. Is that also not correct? |
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| R. | | Well, if that means as a computer professional I should have a hard and fast answer to that question, I dont think so. |
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| Q. | | Your - I would never suggest that theres a hard and fast answer, but you bring your professional judgment... |
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| R. | | Yes. |
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| Q. | | ...to every task that you do. Is that not correct? |
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| R. | | Yes. |
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| Q. | | And you have 20 years experience and you knew that you had never carried out this particular task before, therefore it might pose you difficulties. |
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| R. | | Oh, but its so common to work on something unfamiliar, I did that many times based on my experience of doing unfamiliar things. You know, generally these things are achievable. You have to monkey around with it a little bit. Everybody that works with computers knows this.
You know, you try something new, you install a new -you know I tried a TAC (ph) software thing for the first time less than a year ago. You expect it will work. Some times it takes longer than expected because youve never done it before. |
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| Q. | | But to each new situation you bring your professional judgment as to whether or not you are able to complete the task and whether or not you have the skills set... |
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| R. | | Okay, yes, uh-hum. |
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| Q. | | ...to enable you to complete that task. Is that correct? |
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| R. | | Yes. |
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| Q. | | And you told this court that you did not anticipate that this task would be anything other than fairly straightforward and that it would take up to a maximum of eight hours, if I understand your testimony correctly. |
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| R. | | Well, I told the court not that I didnt expect, I expected. In other words, I would have assigned the probability at maybe 80 percent, that this could be done fairly promptly, fairly efficiently. That was my expectation. I was fairly confident but I couldnt guarantee it because I hadnt done exactly this before. |
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| Q. | | And looking at it now, now that you are three years away, or I guess two years away... |
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| R. | | Two years. |
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| Q. | | ...from the events. |
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| R. | | Two and a half. |
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| Q. | | Dont you think that at a certain point you should have realized that this task was not going to be able to be completed... |
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| R. | | Well, no. |
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| Q. | | ...using your professional judgment? |
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| R. | | Yes. I was making progress. At first there were difficulties in simply moving the data from one computer system to the other. It took some time to do that. Once Id done that I expected that Id be able to get further along the path.
You know, this is like a chain and every link has to work perfectly so, you know, I got a number of links working in succession but I didnt get all of them working. |
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| Q. | | But there was no result, is that not correct? There was, in fact, no stage of the task which was completed. |
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| R. | | Oh, certainly. No, I did accomplish moving the data over. This was - in other words, you know, its different to get a program running on a new computer versus moving it to the new computer. It was running successfully on the old computer, thats where I had set it up. I succeeded in moving it, moving the program to the new computer. That took some time, several hours. I couldnt get it running on the new computer.
And I also, you know, knowing that this would be something that Mr. Geisweiller would need to have in the future, despite my failure to complete the job, I left the document of procedure, which he didnt have at that point, on how to routinely, predictably, move things from one - from the old computer to the new computer, in the future. |
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| Q. | | Was that something he had asked you to do? |
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| R. | | Its part of the job that I was doing. |
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| Q. | | Isnt it true that you called a number of other computer consultants in order to help you overcome obstacles that you were facing? |
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| R. | | Not a number, Im fairly certain that there was one. |
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| Q. | | You called another computer consultant to assist you with the roadblocks you were experiencing in transferring the data, is that correct? And this is because this computer consultant had knowledge or expertise to bring to the problem that you did not apparently have. |
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| R. | | Well, I believe he had already done this specific thing before. |
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| Q. | | But despite his assistance you were not able to accomplish the task. |
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| R. | | No, I used his assistance to successfully move the things from the old to the new system, so his assistance was helpful. |
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| Q. | | But the task was to make the new program work in the new system, was it not? |
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| R. | | Well, the final result, certainly as Ive said, was not achieved but, you know, we got further towards that objective with the assistance of the other consultant. |
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| Q. | | How many hours did you spend on the first day at The Select? |
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| R. | | Thats six - whatever $500.00 divides into. |
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| Q. | | We touched briefly on your arrangements in the past. You told the court you have upon occasion done work for free for The Select, is that correct? |
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| R. | | Uh-hum |
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| Q. | | Your hourly rate has varied over the years, is that correct? |
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| R. | | Not since 1990. |
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| Q. | | When did you move to New York? |
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| R. | | About 93 I believe. |
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| Q. | | Was that not the point at which you stopped regularly working for Mr... |
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| R. | | Geisweiller. |
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| Q. | | ...Geisweiller. |
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| R. | | Yes. Well, certainly when I was in New York I was not working for him regularly, yes. |
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| Q. | | You had been working on a continual basis up till 93? |
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| R. | | Well, I also - I had moved elsewhere shortly before New York as well. Hong Kong. |
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| Q. | | Okay, but it was an extremely irregular relationship that you had with Mr. Geisweiller after 1993, is that correct? |
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| R. | | Yes. Yes, it was. |
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| Q. | | And you had had different payment arrangements, is that also not correct? Sometimes it was a lump fee, sometimes it was an hourly rate. |
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| R. | | I believe the lump sum, the fixed fee arrangement, we entered into that arrangement I believe once at the very outset of this business relationship. Unless memory fails that was the only time. |
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| Q. | | Okay. Did you frequently accorded discounts or frequently the price paid was not the hourly rate? Is that not also correct? |
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| R. | | Not at all. It was one of my firm principles. |
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| Q. | | So, you never discounted the work that you did? |
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| R. | | No, not never, but there were certainly not frequent discounts. I believe that there was one discount relating to something of a tragedy that occurred relating to network, something I had no responsibility for but I assisted in the rescue. And I believe thats the only discount, besides the work in question, that I ever applied. |
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| Q. | | Okay. If I could just show you an invoice from November 1992. I believe I gave you... |
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| R. | | Is that one of the ones you gave me? |
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| Q. | | ...a copy before. If I could just confirm, is this the discount that you were referring to as the network tragedy? Ill give a copy to the court. |
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| R. | | I dont really recollect. A rebate on 92 services, eighty-six twenty. I dont know what that represents. |
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| Q. | | This is your letterhead? |
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| R. | | Yes. |
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| Q. | | This is your bill? |
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| R. | | Yes, it was my bill, yes. |
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| Q. | | So that is a rebate on a considerable sum of money? |
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| R. | | Yes. |
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| Q. | | On services that you rendered in 1992. And you cant recollect whether it relates to the network service, it might relate to other work? |
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| R. | | Thats right. |
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| Q. | | Thank you. |
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| R. | | Im not even sure that its a, you know, like a give-back of money. It might have related to the exchange system involving the house account. Im not even sure what the word rebate means but, yes, it looks like, you know, reducing the amount of the invoice, yes. |
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| Q. | | Indeed your payment arrangements in general were quite loose, were they not? |
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| R. | | Not at all, not at all. |
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| Q. | | You just referred to a house account system. |
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| R. | | Yes, I did. |
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| Q. | | You had a system whereby you exchanged services at one point in time. |
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| R. | | Yes. |
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| Q. | | Is that not essentially how it worked? |
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| R. | | Yes. |
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| Q. | | A payment. You did computer work, he gave you meals at his restaurant... |
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| R. | | Theres nothing... |
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| Q. | | ...werent accounted at ... |
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| R. | | ...nothing loose about it. |
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| Q. | | ...his restaurant. |
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| R. | | Nothing loose about it. My services were billed by the hour, totally predictably. He kept track at the restaurant. Mr. Geisweiller kept track of my consumption on restaurant bills, to the penny, and once in a while we had a reconciliation. If I had eaten $3,000.00 of food and liquor then my outstanding balance, or Mr. Geisweillers balance for computer consulting services, would be reduced by that amount. |
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| Q. | | You mentioned work on a keyboard which involved some 20 or 30 hours work. Did you bill those hours to him? |
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| R. | | Yes, every hour. |
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| Q. | | Every hour, for a successful result? |
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| R. | | I got a successful result that time. |
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| Q. | | In terms of your arrangements at this time you discussed a telephone call between you and Mr. Geisweiller from New York. In fact there were several, werent there? |
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| R. | | Yes. |
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| Q. | | He had a problem, he spoke to you in New York. Isnt it true that in fact there was no direct discussion of money at that point in time? |
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| R. | | I think thats correct, yes. |
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| Q. | | And in fact you were no longer working regularly for Mr.... |
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| R. | | Thats right. |
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| Q. | | ...Geisweiller at that time. In fact your practice was very much to negotiate once the work was completed, that the hourly rate was sort of the initial discussion and thereafter you came to terms with each other... |
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| R. | | I know youd like me to say this but... |
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| Q. | | ...about what amount... |
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| R. | | ...you know, Ill just repeat myself, there was absolutely nothing inflexible - nothing flexible about my system of billing. I billed every hour. |
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| Q. | | Except when no result was achieved, is that not correct? |
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| R. | | No, even when no result, it was invariant. If I did not bill when no result was achieved then what about my payback when I do achieve the result? Why would I only give away money and never get it back? I billed by the hour because thats the way a computer work is.
I often worked on things that had nothing to do with my specialty, at Mr. Geisweillers request. I told him many times about this. French keyboards, thats not my specialty. P.C. anywhere, you know, getting to, a system. Two computers to communicate by telephone line, which we spent much time on, thats not my specialty. In corporations they never use these phone lines to communicate between computers.
I bill by the hour, sometimes I didnt think it was worth it, and I pointed this out to Mr. Geisweiller. This is thousands and thousands of dollars for something that nobody would think is worth, this result, but he wanted that service. It was by the hour. |
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| Q. | | The network... |
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| R. | | Yes. |
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| Q. | | ...you did not bill by the hour because there was no successful result achieved, is that not correct? |
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| R. | | Thats not correct. I billed by the hour. Mr. Geisweiller was very upset. All right, there was a shop, a computer shop to which I had directed Mr. Geisweiller on one occasion suggesting he might want to pick up a cable or the occasional accessory for computers that he needed once in a while. The people working in that shop, they were Vietnamese. Nice people, almost incomprehensible. It was virtually impossible to communicate with these people.
Mr. Geisweiller somehow, without my knowledge, contracted with these people to have them install a network in his office. This was astonishing to me. They went in, they did this operation. It was just a fiasco and it ruined all the data in his data basis which was important to him, you know, accounting data and the data in the system that I had done, the sales on data base for the restaurant. So it was a total fiasco.
I spent - my participation in this job was an enormous amount of time working to just fix everything. I participated in getting the original computer system back on line and working from the tape back-ups that had been routinely made to restore the data. My work was actually a total success. It demonstrated that the back-up procedure that I had installed, that I had set up, was working perfectly because we were able to get everything back. |
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| Q. | | You did not bill by the hour. |
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| R. | | Let me complete the answer. I initially did bill by the hour. It was a huge amount and basically the end result was to get Mr. Geisweiller back to square one. He was very upset and on that one occasion, yes, at his insistence - it seemed essential emotionally to preserve Mr. Geisweillers equanimity this way - I believe I gave a 50 percent discount. |
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| Q. | | Ive shown to you this invoice which I suppose we should mark as Exhibit Number Two to identify it. |
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PIECE DE LA PREUVE NUMERO DEUX: Invoice of discount. - Produite et numerotée. |
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| R. | | Is that the same one? |
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| MME LONSDALE: Q. | | Thats the same one which shows a discount of $8,620.00. |
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| R. | | Right. |
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| Q. | | Is that not correct? Ill show it to you again. |
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| R. | | Again, Im not sure that theres a connection but its possible. It could be this. It was a large amount of money. |
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| Q. | | But it was not your recollection initially that this was the network? |
| |
| R. | | I didnt deny it, I just - Im not sure, thats all. |
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| Q. | | If it was so clear, your billing system, why did you have a discussion with Mr. Geisweiller at the end of the first day about your fees relating to the work you had just done? |
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| R. | | Well, I think discussion is overstating it, and I pointed out to him that I had spent - he had spent $500.00 so far. Of course the implicit suggestion was, we might want to abandon this effort. |
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| Q. | | Implicit suggestion or did you relate to mr. Geisweiller... |
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| R. | | Not explicit, it was implicit. I didnt say it out loud. I told him he had already spent five-hundred. He asked if that covered the next day and I said no. And he asked me to return anyhow. |
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| Q. | | Is it possible that you proposed to Mr. Geisweiller that your fee for that day should be $500.00 and that he, in fact, replied to you that that was too expensive? |
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| R. | | No, thats not possible. |
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| Q. | | You told the court that you dont give discounts as a matter of course and that it is always a set hourly fee, is that correct? |
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| R. | | Yes, thats right. |
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| MME LONSDALE: | | I believe the court has a copy of the invoice in this matter. If I could just hand out a copy to the witness. I dont know if it has been marked as an exhibit already. |
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| Q. | | Could you read the passage about it? |
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| R. | | May 1st, 1997. Discount of $320.00 applies for net of $800.00. |
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| Q. | | Is this not in fact... |
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| R. | | Its a discount, yes. Its not my routine practice. I gave a discount, that was the second time in 10 years. |
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| Q. | | Or the third time. |
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| R. | | The second time. |
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| Q. | | Depending on what this invoice relates to. |
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| R. | | Well, just a moment, are you suggesting that was not the network affair? |
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| Q. | | I certainly have no knowledge of which invoice relates. |
| |
| R. | | Okay. |
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| Q. | | Ive asked you, you are not certain. |
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| R. | | Ive testified there was one discount. To my belief that occurred before this one, before this job. And really its the only discount of any relevance because it was what - its what he would have known of at the time that he would have formed his expectations of what his payment for the second job would be.
Yes, for this particular job I applied a second discount because it was unusual to achieve no results. Normally I would just have had more time to spend to continue making it work. |
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| Q. | | Was your bill not effectively a negotiation? |
| |
| R. | | No. I was at liberty to apply whatever discount I wanted. As a courtesy I applied a prompt payment discount to that invoice. It was a courtesy, I could have charged 1,120. That had to be what Mr. Geisweillers expectation was. |
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| Q. | | Do you recall writing a letter to Mr. Geisweiller about the matter in June? |
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| R. | | Yes. |
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| Q. | | Excuse me until I find the letter. |
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| R. | | Sure, the June 11th letter, I believe? |
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| Q. | | Here I might have it. Indeed, I believe you have a copy of this, your letter. |
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| R. | | Aha. |
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| MME LONSDALE: | | The courts indulgence. |
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| R. | | I think I brought my own copy. |
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| MME LONSDALE: | | Again Im not sure if this letter was marked as an exhibit before the court. |
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| R. | | I filed it originally with the court so, you might have it, Your Honour. |
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| LA COUR: | | Yes. Did you file the first - the bill that you just referred to as an exhibit? |
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| MME LONSDALE: | | Certainly, if it isnt already an exhibit. |
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| LA COUR: | | No, because we are starting with todays. Do you have a copy or should I use this one? |
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| MME LONSDALE: | | I think that I have a copy. |
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| LA COUR: | | It was with the original claim. Exhibit Number Three will be the invoice of April 15th, 1997. |
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PIECE DE LA PREUVE NUMERO TROIS: Invoice April 15. - Produite et numerotée. |
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| MME LONSDALE: Q. | | Ill read, with your permission, the last sentence of the first paragraph. |
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| R. | | Yes. |
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| Q. | | It is disappointing, to say the least, that you seem prepared to conclude a relationship of 10 years, that the two of us should feud over $800.00 by acting as if you do not understand this long-standing arrangement.
Did I read that correctly? |
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| R. | | Yes, you did. |
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| Q. | | And this is dated June 11th 1997. Would you not suggest - in fact you didnt think you were out $1,120.00. You referred to this bill as $800.00 in this letter. |
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| R. | | Well, we saw that the invoice had - it was a net of 800. Thats what I was referring to. For some reason Mr. Geisweiller was creating a dispute like this with a consultant that had brought him much fine work for many years. He was creating a dispute over $800.00 by not paying it. |
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| Q. | | Id suggest to you that you no longer had a fixed relationship with Mr. Geisweiller, that you worked for him only periodically at this point in time in 1997, is that correct? |
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| R. | | Yes. |
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| Q. | | That in fact you had no discussion of money with him when you first arranged to come and do the work in Toronto. Is that also not correct? |
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| R. | | No, no. I told him, actually explicitly, this is - I had in fact a few months earlier, done one of these minor services for free. I was at the restaurant, I had eaten there. I think I did something for about one hour in the office. It was free. I was explicit in this able job in letting Mr. Geisweiller know that this is a more substantial job, this is a lot of work and this would be billed in the normal way. |
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| Q. | | But it was a smaller job. It was when you expected to be able... |
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| R. | | No, not this... |
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| Q. | | ...to accomplish it in a day, was it not? |
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| R. | | This is before I began the work. I knew immediately this is a more substantial - this is not a minor job even if my rosiest expectations are fulfilled. This is substantial work that will take a lot of my time, you know, time that I could be enjoying my vacation back in Toronto. |
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| Q. | | So this discussion took place when you started the work or when you first discussed it? |
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| R. | | Before I began the work. |
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| Q. | | Id suggest to you that in fact your arrangement was very open. You had never had a written contract with Mr. Geisweiller. |
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| R. | | Whats your question? |
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| Q. | | Is that not correct? |
| |
| R. | | Yes. |
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| Q. | | Never had a relationship which has been ill-defined with Mr. Geisweiller. |
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| R. | | My work for Mr. Geisweiller was never ill-defined. I worked by the hour, I did it for 10 years. Nobody could misunderstand it. It was explicitly evident on all the invoices, hourly fees. I mean, we cant get more elementary than this. So many hours, its on every invoice, these many hours, this is the rate, this is the multiple, this is the dollar figure that you owe. Thats it, it was the same arrangement for years. |
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| Q. | | Id suggest to you that in fact what your arrangement was with Mr. Geisweiller was, you discussed the work, the work was completed and a price was negotiated that was agreeable to both parties at the end of the work. |
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| R. | | Well, how is it that - okay... |
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| Q. | | Is that correct? |
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| R. | | No, if you look at the invoices you will see an exact correspondence between the hours reported and the dollar figure. Now, the dollar figure as a result of a negotiation, that must mean that Im misrepresenting the hours worked on every invoice.
Youre saying I worked 10 hours, thats $800.00. Okay, heres the invoice for 10 hours, $800.00. Now youre saying the $800.00 is a result of a negotiation. Well, if it is, then it wasnt really 10 hours because I effectively charged less than $80.00 an hour, so it must really be 12 hours. But if I was giving discounts like that, why would I misrepresent figures on the invoices? Why wouldnt I say, I did work 12 hours? I would write that down on the invoice and then I would say $800.00 nevertheless.
Or I would explicitly show the discount to show my customer the favour that Im doing him. Why wouldnt I do that? |
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| Q. | | In fact, you discussed fees with Mr. Geisweiller at the end of the first day for the first time, is that not correct? |
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| R. | | Well, the first... |
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| Q. | | The first explicit discussion. |
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| R. | | ...I mentioned the result of the multiplication. You know, he wasnt necessarily monitoring the time. I pointed out to him, so far $500.00 had been spent. |
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| Q. | | And he objected to that figure and in fact suggested that figure should cover both days. |
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| R. | | He didnt object. He accepted it and asked me to return the next day even though that would be additional fees. |
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| Q. | | At this point in time, did you offer him a prognosis about whether or not you would be able to complete the work? |
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| R. | | We didnt discuss my expectations but, you know, I wouldnt - I returned the second day and just wasted time. Its not exactly my style to work for nothing, to waste my time just putting in hours without an expectation of, you know, achieving a result. I returned the second day because I expected to be able to finish the second day as well. |
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| Q. | | Okay. So you never communicated to him any of the issues that you were having and your ability to either fulfil them or not? |
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| R. | | But I testified that after the first day I did report to him that I had run into these technical obstacles and I described them to him in detail. |
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| Q. | | And when you sent the bill it was in fact a substantial reduction in the number of hours that youre saying that you spent. 800 versus 1,120. |
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| R. | | No. Well, yes, the invoice accurately reported the number of hours spent, 14 hours, and it offered a discount, exceptionally, in the light of virtually no benefit having been arrived at. |
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| Q. | | As had been your practice in the past where no benefit was conferred upon... |
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| R. | | No, because the one precedent... |
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| Q. | | ...Mr. Geisweiller. It was... |
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| R. | | ...the one precedent before this when a discount had been applied, my work had been wonderfully successful. I achieved a complete restore after his network fiasco. |
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| Q. | | The work was in fact completed by another consultant, is that - are you aware of that? |
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| R. | | Yes, I learned that in the last trial. |
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| Q. | | And that, I believe - would you be surprised to hear that it took around three hours to complete the work? |
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| R. | | No, that wouldnt surprise me at all. |
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| MME LONSDALE: | | Okay, thank you. I have nothing further. |
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| LA COUR: | | Well enter this letter of June the 11th, 1997 as Exhibit Number Four. I think its Number Four. A letter by the defendant. |
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PIECE DE LA PREUVE NUMERO QUATRE: Letter of June 11th, 1997. Produite et numerotée. |
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| LA COUR: | | I just want to be clear on the terms of the contract, since its an oral contract based on previous invoices. |
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| R. | | Pardon me, Your Honour, since its a which...? |
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| LA COUR: | | Its an oral contract. |
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| R. | | Oral contract. |
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| LA COUR: | | Its based on... |
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| R. | | Yes. |
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| LA COUR: | | As for the price, its based on previous invoices since its the same hourly rate. |
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| R. | | Yes. |
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| LA COUR: | | And as to the possibility of a discount, you once gave a discount when it was - when the job was successful. Could that mean that if the job is not successful there could be a discussion on that? |
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| R. | | Well, like Im saying, it was such a long relationship. There were dozens and dozens of invoices. To have one discount apply in the entire course of this relationship, I dont believe that that can reasonably be counted on as something that would justify him in demanding a discount.
It was performed - the discount was applied at my discretion. It was a very large amount of money. |
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| LA COUR: | | But it was on your discretion to do so. |
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| R. | | It was at my discretion and... |
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| LA COUR: | | Its not easy with an oral contract. We have to ascertain what were the meetings of the - what was the meeting of the minds and what were the terms of the contract. |
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| R. | | I think the... |
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| LA COUR: | | I know that it was not a specified job where the goal had to be attained, it was the hours. But if there was no success, was there in the oral contract to take into account how much it would cost to have the goal attained? Was there any relation to that and... |
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| R. | | No. |
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| LA COUR: | | ...what is the standard in the industry... |
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| R. | | The standard in the industry is actually for - there are failures all the time and big corporations are spending a lot of money on failures. Thats just a reality of the... |
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| LA COUR: | | Is that at the expense of the customer? |
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| R. | | Yes. Well, its the corporation thats hiring computer consultants. Its unquestioned. Its just completely standard, you pay fees by the hour. An hourly rate is established and, like I testified, this is how I work routinely for corporations. |
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| LA COUR: | | What would be the standard at the end of the first day when you said, This has been spent. Would, in the standard, would another consultant say, Theres so much chance to achieve and the time that is allotted for the next day? Would there ever be some discussion on the possibility of obtaining the goal within that time? |
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| R. | | Well, I guess the only additional thing I could have provided after the first day, would be some kind of a numerical estimate of how likely I would be to achieve the result on the second day. |
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| LA COUR: | | Okay. |
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| R. | | I didnt formulate that kind of estimate. You know, professionally just the fact of my returning indicated I did expect to achieve the result but Mr. Geisweiller didnt request and I didnt provide, you know... |
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| LA COUR: | | Okay, you mentioned that progress was achieved, that you moved successfully the program from the old to the new computer. |
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| R. | | Yes. |
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| LA COUR: | | Is there anything else that was helpful to the next consultant besides that? |
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| R. | | No, I dont think so. |
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| LA COUR: | | No. Is it possible to divide, if you were to fix a value to what was achieved, is it possible to put a figure on that? |
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| R. | | You know, I have to insist, the value is my time. |
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| LA COUR: | | Its the time, yes. |
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| R. | | My time. I spent 14 hours working on behalf of Mr. Geisweiller to promote his interests. That is the value, my time, my best efforts. |
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| LA COUR: | | Okay. Any further questions? |
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| MME LONSDALE: | | If - I think I may have one series of further questions that I would like to ask. |
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| Q. | | I believe you told the court that one of your practices was to type up your invoice in the computer and leave it at the place of work. |
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| R. | | It wasnt a practice, no. I didnt say that but I did do this on this occasion. I was visiting from New York, we didnt have - it wasnt a normal arrangement. |
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| Q. | | And you had done this in the past as well upon occasion, perhaps not always but sometimes. |
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| R. | | I dont remember ever doing it before. I was living in New York so it was just simply convenient to leave the - I would have actually printed it but the printer was engaged, Mr. Geisweiller was busy using it. I told him where the invoice was on the computer and he said no problem. And later on I spoke to him and he told me he had printed it. |
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| Q. | | A copy for the court. We wont mark it as an exhibit until you recognize it. I believe I gave you a copy of this before. This is, what I believe, is one of your invoices printed. Do you recognize it? |
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| R. | | Its not an invoice. This was my practice, to print notes like this. Yes, I left those saved on a disk, many. Heres a note, a message, because typically I worked late at night. He wasnt there when I finished. I left a message for him. I printed it but left it on the computer because thats where I generated it. The invoices were not prepared this way. |
| |
| Q. | | No, weve seen that, an official invoice. |
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| R. | | Yes. |
| |
| Q. | | Could you tell me roughly when in your relationship this invoice would have been... |
| |
| R. | | Its not an invoice. |
| |
| Q. | | ...related to? Sorry, this... |
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| R. | | Note. |
| |
| Q. | | ...note would have related to? |
| |
| R. | | Well, it looks like 95. Yes, 95, February. |
| |
| Q. | | Could you indicate for me the bottom with the hourly rates that youre charging? |
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| R. | | Sixty. |
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| MME LONSDALE: | | I have nothing further. If I could mark this as an Exhibit? I lost track of the numbers. |
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| LA COUR: | | Five? |
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| GREFFIERE DE LA COUR: | | Yes, Five, Your Honour. |
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| LA COUR: | | Okay. |
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PIECE DE LA PREUVE NUMERO CINQ: Note, February 95. - Produite et numerotée. |
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| MS LONSDALE: Q. | | You have the copy. |
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| R. | | Well, I guess theres a question there, so let me try to think about that and provide an answer. Im momentarily puzzled. |
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| LA COUR: | | If you could refer to data processed dated 95-2-28. It has to be on that date or farther. |
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| R. | | Your Honour, Im truly not sure what this represents. Id be interested in hearing evidence from Mr. Geisweiller as to what my rate was in 1995. Theres no question it was eighty. Im not sure what this note means. |
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| LA COUR: | | Youll be able to ask him questions when he will testify - if hes testifying. |
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| R. | | All right. You know, I am not acknowledging in my response to the question thats indicated by this note. Im not acknowledging that the rate was sixty in 1995. Since 1990 it was stable at $80.00 an hour. |
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| MME LONSDALE: | | I think its your... |
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| MR. WITTENBERG: R. | | Yes, its my - I mean, I cant even authenticate this. I dont have a signature. I, frankly, I do not have any idea what this could mean. My testimony stands that my rate was $80.00, never went down from there, since 1990. |
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| LA COUR: | | Okay, thank you. You may step down.
Its 1:08 in the afternoon... |
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| DES DISCUSSIONS AU SUJET DE LA PAUSE SENSUIVIRENT |
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| - P A U S E - |
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| A LA REPRISE: |
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| MME LONSDALE: | | Si je pourrais intervenir. Jaurai une autre question très technique à poser à
M. Wittenberg, si la cour me permet. |
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| LA COUR: | | Cest bien. Vous êtes toujours assermenté. Youre still sworn in. |
| |
| CONTRE-INTERROGATOIRE PAR MME LONSDALE (Cont.) |
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| MME LONSDALE: Q. | | I believe I asked you the number of hours that you spent on the first day, and you replied six hours. Is that correct? |
| |
| R. | | It works out at six and a quarter. |
| |
| Q. | | Six and a quarter. How many hours did you spend on the second day? |
| |
| R. | | Seven and three quarters. |
| |
| Q. | | Okay, what time was your flight to New York? |
| |
| R. | | I forget. |
| |
| Q. | | Its possible that your flight to New York was at 1:00 p.m.? |
| |
| R. | | No. |
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| MME LONSDALE: | | Okay, thank you. |
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| LA COUR: | | Cest le tour de la défense de présenter des témoins. |
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| GREFFIERE DE LA COUR: | | State your name for the court, please. |
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| DEFENDEUR: | | Mon nom est Frederic Geisweiller. |
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| GREFFIERE DE LA COUR: | | Oh, Im sorry Your Honour, did you want to say something? |
| |
| LA COUR: | | Its in French. |
| |
| FREDERIC GEISWEILLER: ASSERMENTE |
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| INTERROGATOIRE PRINCIPAL PAR MME LONSDALE: |
| |
| Q. | | M. Geisweiller, comment gagnez vous votre vie? |
| |
| R. | | Je suis restaurateur, ja un restaurant français qui sappelle Le Select Bistro qui est situé sur la rue Queen à langle de la rue Spadina, pas très loin de la rue Spadina, et jexerce cette profession à cet endroit depuis un peu plus de 20 ans. |
| |
| Q. | | Comment est-ce que vous connaissez M. Uriel Wittenberg? |
| |
| R. | | Jai rencontré M. Uriel Wittenberg dans une manifestation culturelle à lUniversité York lors de la venue du Président français, lex-Président français, M. François Mitterand, pendant laquelle nous avons socialisé, parlé. Jai compris à ce moment-là quil était dans les ordinateurs. Je pense que sa carrière commençait, Je nen suis pas sûr, je crois quil sortait de lécole, et nous avons fait ce quon se fait dans ce cas en général, échanger nos cartes de visite et jai même gardé sa carte de visite et je lai rappelé par la suite. |
| |
| Q. | | Et est-ce quil a travaillé pour vous au Select Bistro ou non? |
| |
| R. | | Oui. Cest à dire quil a travaillé pour moi dans le contexte du Select, parfois au Select, parfois aussi chez moi car il avait mis au point un système dordinateurs. Cétait bien sûr à lépoque où les ordinateurs personnels commençaient - ça navait pas du tout la sophistication quils ont aujourdhui - et nous avions un ordinateur personnel au Select et un chez moi
de manière quils puissent communiquer lun avec lautre. Donc, dans les deux cas cétait un travail en rapport avec le Select mais parfois fait en deux emplacements différents. |
| |
| Q. | | Et quelles étaient vos ententes dans le passé, la façon que vous procédiez? |
| |
| R. | | Comme nous nous sommes - ça remonte bien sûr à il y a très longtemps, mais bien évidemment que lorsque nous nous sommes rencontrés et que jai parlé des besoins que javais - je pense même que ça sest fait à loccasion de ce coquetel pour le Président français - lui ma indiqué quil aimerait voir ce que nous faisions. Il est donc venu au Select, il a regardé ce que nous avions et ce que nous navions pas et a fait à ce point une proposition en disant: Voilà comment vous pourriez faire telle et telle chose dans un premier temps.
Nous avons donc conclu à ce moment de faire une première partie dun projet, quil saurait traité de cette première partie, puis il irait peut-être plus loin
par la suite. Et donc, sur une base entendue à lavance dans laquelle il me donnait un prix fixe pour le travail quil allait concevoir et réaliser, et si jétais satisfait de ses services nous pouvions passer ensuite à la phase deux, à la phase trois, la phase quatre et ainsi de suite. |
| |
| Q. | | Et est-ce que cela sest produit? |
| |
| R. | | Oui, ça sest absolument produit. Jétais satisfait des résultats, donc la proposition - cest sûr dans tout ça les propositions souvent changeaient, cest à dire, quentre lidée de départ et ce que nous avons realisé, nous nous sommes rendu compte que des modifications devraient être faites, quil fallait peut-être reenvisager le système, donc à chaque fois nous nous sommes assis.
Cest quand même essentiellement lui qui avait linitiative de ce genre de choses, étant donné quil était lexpert en informatique, pour me conseiller dautre manière de faire les choses, de les faire mieux, de les faire différemment. Et au cours dun grand nombre dannées cest la relation que nous avons eue jusqua la création ou la réalisation finale dans le logiciel quil avait crée dont nous étions co-propriétaires, qui sappele RIS, R-I-S-, Restaurant inter-face system and management, peut-être.
Donc tout ça sest fait. Ça sest fait, je dirais, ça sest terminé bien avant les années 90. |
| |
| Q. | | Et dans les années récentes, comment est-ce que vous avez arrangé vos entrechanges de travail? |
| |
| R. | | Bon, nous travaillions sur une base soit destimé; soit, lorsque le projet était petit, sur une base horaire. Nous avions aussi à ce moment-là, nous avions convenu davoir un tarif forfaitaire de tant de dollars par mois. Ce tant de dollars par mois a varié. Il a varié en fonction de nos besoins, il a varié aussi en fonction de nos ressources.
Je crois que nous avions commencé avec une somme forfaitaire de 1000 $ par mois et qui a ensuite été baissée vers
800 $. Et pour tout projet qui nétait pas chiffré parce quil était trop petit en général, Uriel facturait donc un salaire horaire qui était comptabilisé à lintérieur de ces 800 $ ou
1000 $ par mois.
Le salaire horaire, lui, a changé. Il était de tant lorsque nous avons commencé, je ne me souviens pas de combien il était mais il était trop cher. Jai donc demandé à ce quil y ait une diminution, que jai obtenue. Il la fait, sest passé à, je crois, 60 $. Et puis lorsque le projet était terminé dans son ensemble et que les services quil rendait pour nous étaient beaucoup plus sporadiques, beaucoup plus épisodiques, il a demandé à ce que son tarif horaire soit remonté à 80 $. Donc nous avons accepté ça.
Quelque part dans tout ça, à ce moment-là sa contribution au Select était très faible, le système fonctionnait assez bien... |
| |
| Q. | | On parle de quelles années-là à peu près? |
| |
| R. | | Nous sommes maintenant quelque part dans les années 90, surtout au moment où Uriel part. |
| |
| Q. | | Okay. |
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| R. | | Donc Uriel est parti. Il est aux Etats-Unis, nous communiquons souvent par téléphone. Il a besoin dun grand nombre de renseignments que je dois lui fournir. Il revient ensuite de manière épisodique. A ce moment-là la question de largent nest plus vraiment discutée puisque nous navons plus de tarif forfaitaire par mois vu quil nest plus là, et en fait à chaque fois quil vient nous lui expliquons les tout petits problèmes que lon peut avoir. Celui que nous avons montré à la cour un petit peu plus tôt qui était des ventes dont la somme ne saccordait pas.
Cétait en général des tâches de nature assez triviale pour lui et souvent nous échangions ce travail pour un repas en bas avec sa girl-friend ou des repas - où parfois il faisait de payer, parfois il ne faisait pas de payer. Cétait très lâche parce que nous navions plus lentente à temps plein étant donné quil ne faisait plus rien. Et donc, cest resté dans cette période pendant quelques années jusquau temps que nous en arrivions à lincident qui nous amène aujourdhui... |
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| Q. | | Parlons de lincident qui nous amène aujourdhui. la tâche quil fallait accomplir, comment est-ce que cela sest - la discussion sest initiée autour de cette tâche-là? |
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| R. | | Bon, nous avons parlé un peu plus tôt dun réseau qui avait été catastrophique. Je crois que le rôle dUriel est un petit peu minimisé dans la catastrophe dans la mesure où cest lui qui quand même avait suggéré un magasin qui pouvait nous approvisionner en matériel et il ny avait certainement rien dans ce quil ait dit qui puisse laisser entendre que ces gens ne seraient pas capables de faire un réseau lorsquun réseau consiste essentiellement à connecter des machines les unes et les autres.
Cest un projet dont nous avions parlé déjà souvent, cest question de réseau, parce que nous étions - plusieurs années sétaient passées - déjà limités par le fait que nous nayons quun seul ordinateur et nous faisions la queue maintenant, plusieurs employés, derrière le même ordinateur. |
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| Q. | | Donc vous vouliez transférer le programme à un autre... |
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| R. | | Voilà, voilà. |
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| Q. | | ...système, si je comprends bien. |
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| R. | | Il y a eu ce premier échec mais quelques années plus tard nous avons ressuscité ce projet de réseau local et nous avons acheté un grand nombre dordinateurs que nous avons branchés ensemble. Tout ça a très bien marché, mais le programme dorigine, celui qui était capable danalyser nos ventes, celui quUriel avait déssiné, avait mis au point, se trouvait dans un ordinateur complètement exclu du réseau.
Et bien, ça nous posait un problème parce quil fallait pouvoir physiquement sortir du réseau, aller à un endroit où il y avait une table dordinateur pour prendre ces informations pour les rentrer après dans dautres inform - dautres ordinateurs.
La chose logique était, bien sûr, de lintégrer à lintérieur même de notre réseau et de sassurer quil soit accessible et visible par tous les participants qui travaillaient dans son réseau. Nous avons donc parlé ensemble, il ma laissé sous-entendre quil pouvait le faire.
Javais demandé déjà à plusiers personnes ce quelles ont pensé, si elles pouvaient le faire, et en réponse ce que javais eu cest que le programme dUriel est un programme quil a écrit, que personne nutilise, à moins quil y ait vraiment énormément de documentation. Cest un programme codé de manière mathématique, ce qui fait que personne ne peut se retrouver dedans à part celui qui la créé.
Il y avait donc de grandes hésitations de la part de qui que se soit dessayer de manipuler cette information parce quils ne savaient pas vraiment quelles en seraient les conséquences dans la mesure où cétait une anomalie, quelque chose que personne nutilise et ne sachète pas. Cétait vraiment tout à fait particulier. Donc, Uriel semblait la personne logique et souvent les consultants que jutilisais mont dit quil fallait certainement que je madresse ailleurs. Bon, Uriel habitait aux Etats-Unis.
Encore une fois, à lépoque nous étions souvent en contact, il cherchait du travail, il mappelait souvent pour que je donne des références à ses employeurs potentiels, donc on se parlait assez souvent. Je sais quil avait certaines difficultés, il devait venir à Toronto pour un week-end et il ma offert, étant à Toronto, de venir voir ce quil pouvait - ce quil pouvait faire. Donc jai dis, daccord.
Cétait pas moi qui avait organisé la date particulière. Cétait la date qui convenait à Uriel puisquil sagissait dun long week-end et que ça coincidait à son emploi du temps. Donc nous sommes partis sur cette base. Il était disponible, il est venu. |
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| Q. | | Alors, comment est-ce que le travail sest déroulé dans les faits? |
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| R. | | Dans les faits Uriel était là le jour dit, le jour indiqué. Il était là à neuf heures du matin. Il a eu des problèmes assez rapidement, des problèmes dordre technique bêtes. Ce nétait pas le bon cas. Pour mettre une fiche dans une fiche ça nallait pas. Il est allé dans un magasin et où ils ne vendaient pas le bon truc, ce qui a fait quil le retourne. Bon, une perte de temps considérable pour faire ça.
Finalement il a réussi à brancher les ordinateurs ensemble mais il a le problème de protocole de communication. Cest donc là où jai suggéré quil appelle lun des consultants avec lequel javais traité qui avait été responsable, lui, pour une autre partie du logiciel que nous utilisions.
Il lappellé bien sûr mais quand il appelle les gens ne sont pas au téléphone. Il y a des messages, il refléchi, il va boire un café, il remonte, il se casse la tête, il souffre. On avait le sentiment quil était assez perdu. Je pense que plusieurs fois il ma averti du fait que cela allait être plus difficile quenvisagé.
Bon, le consultant la rappelé. A un moment ou à un autre, finalement, le transfer de linformation sest fait de ce vieil ordinateur au nouveau, mais cétait un tranfer dinformation que, honnêtement, nimporte qui aurait été capable de faire ça puisquon ne pouvait toujours pas le voir sur le nouvel ordinateur. Donc, cétait transféré, on ne pouvait pas louvrir, on ne pouvait rien faire avec.
Il a donc - je ne sais pas sil la laissé là. Quil soit là ou pas ça ne me servait à rien, ce qui comptait ce que nous avions toujours le vieil ordinateur et que cest du vieil ordinateur que nous continuions de travailler. |
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| Q. | | Quest-ce qui sest passé à la fin de la première journée? |
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| R. | | A la fin de la première journée il y a une - Uriel ma fait part de sa frustration, du fait quil navait rien réussi à obtenir dans les objectifs que nous nous étions fixés et jai demandé: Quallons nous faire maintenant?, parce que jusquà présent tous les objectifs que nous nous étions fixés avaient été réalisés. Il ma dit, Je ne sais pas mais ça coûte déjà 500 $ pour la première journée.
Ça ma énormément surpris. Je me suis émû du fait que ça pourrait coûter 500 $ sans avoir aucun résultat. Je lui ai dit, Uriel, ça me semble un petit peu riche, il faudra quon parle de ça. Il ny a pas eu de réponse particulière parce que ça sest passé aussi au moment où dans la restoration nous changeons entre le jour et le soir; il y a beaucoup de gens qui arrivent à ce moment-là. Alors donc, une conversation non pas de deux personnes assises dans un bureau mais deux personnes debout dans un bureau, un petit peu bousculées.
Il ma, à partir de ce moment-là, proposé de revenir le lendemain en me disant: Voilà, je ne sais pas où jen suis, je nen suis peut-être pas loin, jen suis peut-être très loin. Il en reste toujours le fait que demain je suis à Toronto, je ne pars pas avant laprès-midi et si tu veux je peux essayer et peut-être ça va marcher.
Bon, dans ma tête il était très clair que si cétait 500 $ et que ça marche le lendemain ça valait 500 $. Que ça marche ça valait plus que 500 $, il ny avait aucun doute là-dessus. Donc, je me suis appuyé sur le conseil quil ma donné à ce moment-là qui était de revenir, tout en me disant: Bien sûr, il ny a pas de garantie, juste de revenir et ça peut ne pas marcher, mais en me donnant une indication que il était peut-être pas très loin et que peut-être ce qui lui manquait cétait quelques heures le lendemain.
Il est donc revenu le lendemain et le lendemain a été le même désastre que la veille et Uriel a dû partir de bonne heure parce quil avait un avion dans laprès-midi vers une heure de laprès-midi à peu près, ou deux heures. Ou il est parti à une heure, je ne me souviens plus, parti pour New York.
A partir de ce moment-là, bien sûr, jai jamais vu une facture. La facture était quelque part dans lordinateur et je sais quUriel sest étonné que je nai pas donné signe de vie en se demandant ce que je pouvais faire de cette facture mais jattendais pas de facture, jattendais de lui un conseil.
Il était parti à New York. Ce que jattendais ce quil me téléphone en me disant: Jai réfléchi et voilà comme on peut faire ce projet, ou, Cest impossible. Jattendais un conseil. Il est mon consultant, cest un professionnel, cest à lui de déterminer quelles sont les limites des choses unréalisables - non réalisables. Moi je ne le sais pas.
Donc, un certain temps sest passé et finalement il ma rappelé pour me demander où était sa facture. Jai dit que sa facture je ne savais pas où elle était, je ne lavais pas vue, quil devrait lenvoyer. Il ma dit donc que cétait la fin de ses services et je lui ai fait remarquer que il y avait aucun résultat. Sil y avait pas aucun résultat comment pouvait-il supposer que je le paie son tarif complet, tarif que nous navions pas beaucoup négocié à lavance; que certainement je pouvais apprécier le fait quil était venu, quil avait passé du temps mais que ça, ça méritait compensation mais sur une base particulière.
Les négociations étaient très, très difficiles. I ny a pas de négociations, cétait: Je dois être payé au complet, je travaille, jai un tarif horaire, je prends le nombre dheures pour lesquelles je travaille, je multiplie ça par mon tarif horaire, jarrive à mon addition. Pour tout de suite cétait un bloc.
Jai suggéré peut-être quon devait voir un arbitre pour ce genre de chose; quil y avait quelque part un terrain dentente logique. Je pense que lune des choses auxquelles je me serais attendu dUriel cest quil arrive, en tant que professionnel comme il lest et nous la indiqué - qui a 20 ans dexercise ou des fonctions - qui évalue, passe un peu de temps, évalue, et me fasse un constat déchecs en disant: Je suis désolé mais je ne suis pas lhomme de la situation.
Cétait dans une plate-forme, Windows 95, il ne connaissait pas les Windows 95, il était en Windows 3. Ce que nous avions cétait en DOS, quelque chose quil connassait bien. La migration de ce logiciel sous dautres systèmes dexploitation était quelque chose dun petit peu difficile.
Sil mavait dit au bout de trois heures ou quatre heures: Je ne sais pas, il faut que tu appelles le consultant que je viens dappeller, il a lair de sy connaître, jaurais eu aucun problème à payer le salaire dUriel. Cest quà chaque fois cétait: Cest difficile mais on va peut-être y arriver, on va peut-être y arriver. Non, On peut pas pas arriver, mais, On va peut-être y arriver. Jai jamais, jamais de réponses catégoriques à ce niveau. |
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| Q. | | Est-ce que vous avez résolu votre problème à la fin? |
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| R. | | Le problème a été finalement résolu. Jai finalement appelé le consultant quUriel avait appelé lui-même qui sy connassait beaucoup plus. En fait, ce quil fallait cétait, bon, quelquun qui ait grande familiarité avec le système dexploitation 95, Windows 95. Quelquun qui ait une grande familiarité aussi avec la communication.
Cétait donc ce consultant qui est venu et qui ma -il a réparé le problème, enfin il na pas réparé le problème mais il a solutionné le problème que nous avions assez rapidement, et à partir de là jai eu cette personne comme consultant. |
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| Q. | | Cette personne son nom est...? |
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| R. | | Scott Brenner. |
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| MME LONSDALE: | | Jaimerais montrer - je pense que M. Wittenberg a reçu une copie de ça. |
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| Q. | | Est-ce que vous reconnaissez cette facture? |
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| R. | | Oui. |
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| STENOGRAPHE JUDICIAIRE: | | Mme Lonsdale, sil vous plaît, je ne peux pas vous entendre. |
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| MME LONSDALE: | | Pardon. |
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| Q. | | Est-ce que vous pourriez la décrire? |
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| R. | | Oui, dans cette facture jai quatre heures facturables à 150 $. Nous nous étions mis daccord pour quil me facture 50 pour cent de ces 150 $. Jai donc payé 75 $. Il a eu des difficultés supplémentaires, trois heures de difficultés supplémentaires pour lesquelles il ne ma pas chargé. Le problème donc était résolu pour les 300 $ plus il y avait le problème de P.S.T, G.S.T. Il ne pouvait pas charger la P.S.T. Les 300 $ plus la G.S.T. Et cest le système avec lequel nous fonctionnons depuis. |
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| MME LONSDALE: | | Est-ce quon peut marquer ça comme Exhibit? |
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| LA COUR: | | Oui, Exhibit numéro six, je pense. |
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PIECE DE LA PREUVE NUMERO SIX: Facture de Scott Brenner. [ Image ] - Produite et numérotée. |
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| MME LONSDALE: Q. | | Est-ce quil y a dautre chose que vous aimeriez dire à la cour? |
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| R. | | Non, je ne pense pas. Je pense que cest une -je regrette que nous en soyons là. Définitivement au cours des mois nous aurions pu négocier. Jai toujours eu du mal à comprendre combien je luis devais exactement. Est-ce que cétait 800 $, est-ce que cétait 1900? Si je fais le compte des heures et je multiplie, arriverons-nous au même résultat - mais quil y avait un moyen dentente à ce niveau-là. Il a refusé mes offres, il a refusé les offres darbitrage. |
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| Q. | | Si je peux vous demander une dernière question, combien dheures est-ce quUriel a passé le mardi - pardon, la deuxiéeme journée, le 15, au Select? |
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| R. | | La deuxième journée nétait quune demie journée. Il avait un avion, il était très pressé. Il est donc arrivé à lheure habituelle. Je pense que dans les deux cas il est venu à neuf heures et - neuf, neuf heures et demie, je ne sais pas - je pense quil a dû faire de neuf à cinq, je ne sais pas ce quil - et le lendemain il est parti à une heure. Donc, admettant quil soit venu à neuf heures, ça fait de neuf heures à une heure, avec des heures de lunch dans les deux cas et dans les deux jours, qui devraient être soustraites de toute manière de ces heures de travail. |
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| MME LONSDALE: | | Merci. |
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| R. | | Je vous remercie. |
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| MME LONSDALE: | | Ce sont mes questions. |
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| LA COUR: | | Monsieur Wittenberg, cest votre tour de poser des questions. |
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| CONTRE-INTERROGATOIRE PAR MONSIEUR WITTENBERG: |
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| Q. | | Well, if I may, Ill be posing my questions in English, language Im more comfortable with. Let me ask first about your testimony, going back to the monthly retainer that we had. As you pointed out it was at some point a thousand a month, then it went down to $800.00 a month. Does that indicate any inconsistency with the hourly fee system? |
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| R. | | Non, Votre Honneur, ce que la - lintention derrière tout ça était dallouer un certain nombre de nos ressources financières et que donc sur une base annuelle nous avions 12000 $, par exemple, ou 10000, ou quelque soit la somme sur laquelle nous nous entendions. |
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| Q. | | Well, Im not asking, you know, how it was set up or why it was motivated that way, but is it inconsistent with the system of the hourly fees? |
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| R. | | Jétais en train de répondre, Votre Honneur, quà lintérieur de ses ressources et de ses montants forfaitaires il y avait certains projets qui étaient facturés sur une base determinée et pour laquelle on sest entendu. Et quaussi à lintérieur de ça il y avait une partie de travail horaire, encore une fois, qui était pour les choses plus difficiles à determiner qui normalement allaient côuter moins cher.
Le troisième composant de tout ça était le compte-maison quil recevait qui était un compte tout à fait conséquant et dont nous tenions compte, en fait, dune manière mensuelle. |
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| M. WITTENBERG: | | I think I can understand, fully understand the responses. Unless I request it, I think I can understand the French, thank you. |
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| Q. | | Could you give us an example of work that I did during that period that was not based on hourly fees? |
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| R. | | De quelle période parlez vous? |
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| Q. | | The period of monthly retainer. |
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| R. | | La période forfaitarie a été en vigueur trois mois après que nous nous soyons connus jusquau départ dUriel, donc ça a été pendant toute cette période. |
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| Q. | | Thats not my question. Im asking during this entire period when a monthly retainer arrangement was enclosed, can you give an example of work that I did that was not billed on the hourly basis? |
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| R. | | Je pense que lensemble du projet RIS, si je ne me trompe, na pas été facturé sur une base horaire. Cétait... |
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| Q. | | That was the first job. That was before the monthly retainer. |
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| R. | | Le...le... |
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| Q. | | When we first met. The first job I did was... |
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| R. | | ...projet RIS. |
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| Q. | | ...we established the fixed fees. |
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| Q. | | Le projet RIS a tout de suite été incorporé dans un montant forfaitaire mensuel. Ce que Uriel souhaitait, étant donné quil était en train de sétablir comme professionnel indépendent, était davoir un certain nombre de clients qui tous les mois pouvaient lui garantir un certain revenu pour un travail que na eu, dailleurs, pas besoin dêtre fait tous les mois.
Il pouvait faire le travail de trois mois et attendre les trois autres mois pour être payé, ou ne rien faire pendant trois mois, le faire le quatrième. Ça cétait très souple, donc, absolument de meilleure catégorie.
A lintérieur de ce montant forfaitaire il y avait un ensemble de choses y compris des projets qui avaient été évalués et pour lesquels nous avions déterminé des coûts avant, et un travail horaire, et des accords contractuels où du travail était fait contre le compte du restaurant.
Alors que peut-être dans une petite pé_iode de temps à laquelle je ne peux pas faire allusion, il est possible quil ny ait eu que du travail horaire. Cest possible, mais lensemble de ce travail forfaitare nétait pas fait juste pour comprendre le travail horaire quUriel aurait fait, mais lensemble de sa contribution. |
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| Q. | | Okay, first, didnt the initiative for the monthly retainer come from yourself? |
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| R. | | Jai suggéré cette idée, absolument. Jai suggéré cette idée dans le concepte où vous étiez en train de vous établir et vous vous cherchiez des clients, et où vous me demandiez un certain nombre de clients éventuels, qui pourraient servir de base. Jai fait cette proposition qui vous a manifestement plû et que vous avez essayé dappliquer dans dautres cas. |
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| Q. | | Okay, so you have an idea that that corresponded to my needs but in fact that initiative for a monthly fixed amount came from you? |
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| R. | | Cest possible, cest possible. |
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| Q. | | So I return to my earlier question, can you give me an example of work that I did besides the original fixed-fee job that was not billed on an hourly basis? |
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| R. | | Nous avons fait beaucoup de projets. Fréquemment ces projets étaient évalués à lavance. Et oui, je vais vous donner un exemple que vous avez vous même utilisez un petit peu plus tôt en ce qui concerne le clavier français. Par matière de principe, je trouvais ça scandaleux que lindustrie dinformatique noffrait pas à ces clients des claviers français. Jai donc déterminé davoir un clavier français.
Uriel a fait de la recherche là-dessus et je pense quà ce moment-là Uriel a déterminé que, trouvant ça trop cher, sil pouvait faire faire les clés à tel endroit, les installer, que cela allait coûter tant. Javais un budget à ce moment-là. Que ce budget ait été calculé sur une base horaire ou autre, cest la même discussion que lorsquun peintre vient chez vous et vous donne un estimé pour repeindre. Il a une manière de le calculer. La manière où cétait calculé, je nen suis pas sûr.
Cela a couté très cher de faire faire les claviers en français. Jai mis dobjection à ce fait-là parce que je le savais avant. Quelquun est venu me voir et me dire: Ça va coûter très cher. Il faut faire telle et telle chose. Cest des claviers qui vont coûter 1000 $. Est-ce quon va de lavant ou pas? Jai dis oui. |
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| Q. | | Okay, do you remember what the fixed fee was, by any chance? |
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| R. | | Vous avez en avez fait réference de, je ne sais pas si 1000 $ ou 2000 $ par clavier mais - je ne sais pas, ça pas aucune importance. |
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| Q. | | Youre quite sure of that, that the French keyboards, the work involved by me, not the work of the manufacturers in New York, my work, was offered to you, obtaining French keyboards on a fixed fee? |
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| R. | | Absolument, absolument pour une même raison. Cest quUriel ne ma pas dit, Ça va coûter 400 $. Uriel ma dit: Je risque de passer beaucoup de temps. Je risque peut-être de passer 10 heures. 10 heures pour moi cest un estimé.
Quil me dise: Je vais passer 10 heures, ou quil me dise: Ça coûte 600 $, cest la même chose. Jai un estimé, je ne commence pas avec un projet sans savoir où je vais marrêter. Ce qui fait toute la différence avec la cause qui se trouve ici, nous avons commencé sans savoir où nous allions nous arrêter.
Dans un cas particulier Uriel avait suffisamment réfléchi à la question, en professionnel quil était, pour pouvoir évaluer que faire des claviers français allait coûter grosso modo tant. La manière dont il est arrivé à cet estimé cest de son ressort. Quil y soit arrivé en calculant son temps à lavance cest une chose, mais au moins je le savais à lavance. Donc, cest un estimé. |
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| Q. | | Okay, well, Id like, if I may, just to ask for a little speculation. The work involved in getting these French keyboards mainly involved searching, and searching various networks and providers for somebody who could perform this manufacturing process for key caps. Mainly it was a searching process with no end in sight.
Also this was research that really was completely outside of my speciality. It had nothing to do with what I knew how to do or the service that I was advertising, and the knowledge that I was going to gain had no value to me because I didnt need expertise in French keyboards.
So the speculation that I would like to ask you to provide is, how could I come up with a fixed fee in a case like this? |
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| R. | | Uriel faisait de la recherche pour nous appelant différents fournisseurs pour trouver la solution qui correspondait à nos besoins. Je pense que à un moment il a réussit à determiner quels étaient ces fournisseurs. Il y avait un certain nombre de correspondance qui devait être échangée avec ses correspondants.
Nous avions des réunions au moins une fois par semaine, au moins. Dans le cas de ces réunions jai du mal maintenant à comprendre comment un consultant ne maurait pas mis au courant à lavance dun coût potentiel pour les claviers, qui est un processus qui a duré quelque - plusieurs mois avant que nous les obtenions.
Jai du mal à comprendre la question qui mest posée qui semble suggérer que ces claviers un jour ont été livrés et que ça ma coûté 1000 $ et que je ne le savais pas que javais payé sur une base horaire. Toutes les semaines quand nous nous rencontrions nous faisions un état de la situation, un état du travail en progrès et nous éssayions, en regardant vers lavenir, darriver à déterminer ce que nous devrions faire et combien les choses coûteraient.
Donc jamais je mavancerais dans une histoire de claviers qui coûtent 1000 $ - cest les claviers les plus chers - sans savoir à lavance que ça va me coûter ça. |
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| Q. | | Okay. Did I recommend the people that installed your network in the case that I had to rescue the data? |
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| R. | | Oui, vous avez fait la recommendation de ces gens comme prestataires de services et de machines. Jamais à aucun moment vous avez dit: Ces gens-là sont bons pour telle chose mais pas pour ça. |
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| Q. | | Did I recommend them specifically for the network job that you hired me for? |
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| R. | | Nous traitions avec ces gens de manière régulière. Vous le saviez puisque vous les aviez recommendés. Et vous saviez aussi que nous cherchions à installer un réseau et quà ce moment-là nous prenions des informations diverses sur les personnes capables de le faire.
Je ne me souviens pas davoir entendu à aucun moment une mise en garde de votre part qui dirait: Va surtout pas engager ces gens-là. Dans la mesure où ce sont des gens que vous maviez recommendés pour une tâche particulière il aurait peut-être fallu préciser quils étaient bons pour certaines choses mais pas pour dautres. Ça je ne lai pas entendu de vous. |
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| Q. | | The question, did i recommend them specifically for the network? |
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| R. | | Je ne me souviens pas que vous les aviez ni recommendés ni dérecommendés. |
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| Q. | | And just to follow up, what services did I ever recommend those people for? |
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| R. | | Pour achat de matériel, achat de disques durs, des choses dont nous avions besoin pour nous aggrandir. |
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| Q. | | But those are not services. |
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| R. | | Ce sont des services dans la mesure où ils arrivent à linstaller. Dans la mesure où quelquun vend un ordinateur, mais nouvrant pas la boîte il vient et le met en place et le branche, cest un service aussi. |
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| Q. | | But truly you dont compare selling a machine, plugging in the plugs, like any layman can do, with installing a network? |
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| R. | | Si, parce que brancher une machine - brancher cette machine dans le courant, la broncher dans une imprimante, la brancher à un autre ordinateur, devient maintenant un réseau. Cest exactement la même chose. Où est la complexité, où est la différence dans la difficulté entre mettre un ordinateur sur la table et le brancher déjà à tous les trucs auxquels il doît être branché, qui va être la machine fax, le téléphone, limprimante - ou le brancher à un autre ordinateur? |
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| Q. | | Today, do you appreciate the complexity? |
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| R. | | Je comprends pas la question. La complexité de le faire aujourdhui ou de... |
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| Q. | | In installing a network. |
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| R. | | Non, un réseau aujourdhui na aucune complexité. Un jeune à lécole secondaire installe un réseau en deux coups de cuiller à pot. |
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| Q. | | Why did these people fail then? |
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| R. | | Je nai aucune idée. Vous faisiez partie de cette équipe à ce moment-là. Je sais que dans ce genre de chose cest toujours facile de rapporter le blâme de lun sur lautre. Les autres vous ont blamé, vous les blamez eux... |
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| Q. | | I didnt spend any time installing that network. I wasnt there. |
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| R. | | Alors si vous nétiez pas présent comment se fait-il que jai une facture de 2000 $ après? Il a quand même fallu que vous ayez quelques heures de présence. |
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| Q. | | After the disaster. |
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| R. | | Cétait pas après. Les gens étaient là, vous étiez tous en train de travailler dans la même pièce. Vous aviez ceux qui avaient vendu les machines. Vous étiez en train de leur donner des ordres disant: Va pas faire ci comme ça, il faut le faire dune autre manière. Débranchez-ci, débranchez-ça.
Vous étiez tous en train de travailler au même moment, à la même pièce qui est mon bureau. |
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| Q. | | Okay, the first day I told you $500.00 for that day, is that right? |
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| R. | | On parle du réseau? |
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| Q. | | Non. |
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| R. | | On parle de laffaire devant nous? |
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| Q. | | Oui. |
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| R. | | Oui, vous avez mentionné que vous naviez eu aucun résultat et que la journée coûterait 500 $. |
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| Q. | | Well, could you explain how you can have said that the amount owing in this case is $150.00 then? |
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| R. | | Je ne sais pas doù ces 150 $. Les 500 $ - vous maviez annoncé 500 $ - je jamais dis oui. Vous me dites:
500 $, jai dit: Wow, ça cest vraiment trop cher. Cétait ma première réaction. 500 $? Comment est-ce que vous arrivez à 500 $? Cest vraiment cher. Là de suite les gens sont arrivés, la conversation sest interrompue et on est reparti pour le lendemain. Vous avez dit: Il y a toujours cette possibilité que si je reviens le lendemain je peux résoudre le problème. |
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| Q. | | Okay, so I had told you that the first days work is $500.00. Did you understand that the second days work would be additional to the 500? |
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| R. | | Je vais répondre par une question: Est-ce que vous avez bien entendu mes objections quand vous avez annoncé le montant de 500? |
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| Q. | | Non. |
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| R. | | Non? Sur quelle base mavez vous proposé vos services après pour revenir le lendemain en essayant de terminer ce projet? Quels étaient vos mots? |
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| Q. | | Well, its the same basis that we worked at together for 10 years. |
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| R. | | Est-ce que vous mavez dit: Ça coûte 500 $. Jai rien accompli, je peux toujours revenir demain. Jaccomplirai rien du tout et ça coûtera un autre 500 $? Vous pensez que jaurais accepté? |
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| Q. | | I didnt make that prediction, did I? |
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| R. | | Quelle prédiction avez-vous faite? |
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| Q. | | I had reasons for coming back the second day. There was a reasonable purpose. The hope, the expectation was that the job would be accomplished on the second day. |
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| R. | | Et ça vous me lavez dit. |
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| Q. | | Well, its implicit, I think. No, I didnt say out loud that I expected to achieve the result on the second day. If Im returning the second day I would think... |
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| R. | | Vous me lavez dit, vous me lavez dit. Je ne suis pas daccord avec ça. Jai manifesté des objections aux 500 $ et là vous mavez dit: Je peux toujours revenir le lendemain, il y a des possibilités que je termine. Cest ça que vous mavez dit.
Et donc sur cette base lorque je vous ai mis en garde que 500 $ cétait déjà trop cher pour nobtenir aucun résultat mais que vous offriez de revenir le lendemain pour peut-être terminer le projet, à ce moment-là ce projet complété il valait 500 $. Aucun problème. |
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| Q. | | But you said that when I told you 500, I told you for the first day. But did you get any indication that I was retracting that after your - the objection that youre telling me that you stated at that point? |
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| R. | | Cette affaire était inconclue et jai pensé quen échange vous me offriez de revenir le lendemain pour terminer un projet qui navait pas été complété, et quà ce moment-là une base de 500 $ était payable. |
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| Q. | | Okay, well, I have to accept your understanding, I suppose, but can you quote anything that I said that would have justified that interpretation? |
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| R. | | Cest difficile de citer puisque vous même vous nêtes pas sûre davoir dit quelque chose ou de lavoir pensé ou de me lavoir fait comprendre quand vous avez dit: Je pourrais revenir le lendemain et des choses pourraient sarranger, je pourrais peut-être résoudre le problème. Vous nêtes pas sûre de lavoir dit et vous pensez me lavoir fait comprendre. Vous avez dit: It was implied, donc, vous me lavez fait comprendre.
Alors vous me demandez aujourdhui de me souvenir si vous mavez fait comprendre de manière gestuelle, ou en me le disant, ou jen suis pas sûre. Mais dans les - je crois que nous sommes daccord foncièrement sur ce point tous les deux - ce que vous mavez fait entrevoir dune manière ou dune autre, quen revenant le lendemain le problème pourrait être résolu. |
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| Q. | | Im getting a little confused. I dont believe that I said that. I testified here, implied in my questions, that I was ambiguous in anything I said. I said that one thing was implicit during that discussion, that the fact of my willingness to return tomorrow to continue working on the same problem, implied my expectation that I would succeed the next day. |
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| R. | | Cest un petit peu différent absolument de ce qui vient de se dire à de ce qui sest dit à ce moment-là. Il ny avait aucun doute que si vous maviez dit: Ça coûte 500 $ et je ne peux rien faire dautre, je ne vous aurais jamais demandé de revenir le lendemain. Cest bien évident. Un imbécile ne ferait pas ça.
Bon, vous me dîtes: Ça coûte 500 $ et vous - il y a une qualification dans ce commentaire: que ça coûte 500 $ et si je reviens demain, avec quelques heures de t |